33. Onur Tayranoğlu
Guests: Transdisciplinary performance artist Onur Tayranoğlu and the Finnish Museum of Photography's curator Orlan Ohtonen
Host: Erja Salo, Head of Education and Public programmes.
Erja Salo
00:12-01:12
Hei and hello, this is Kuvaus kiva podcast. I guess you can translate it. Image would be nice, but it doesn't sound as good as in Finnish. I'm Erja Salo from the museum and I'm hosting this podcast once again, and then we have Orlan Ohtonen from our curatorial team from the museum.
Moi Orlan, hello, and then as a guest, we have performance artist Onur Tayranoğlu.
And you were born in Turkey, but now you're living in Helsinki, you're Helsinki based. You have your master's degree from Uni Arts, and you are studying live arts and performance, and previously you've been studying in the Netherlands. Yes, and the study subject.
Onur Tayranoğlu
01:13-01:15
Arts, media and society.
Erja Salo
01:16-01:32
Okay, there was no mention about photography in any of your degrees? And here we are the National Specialized Museum of Photography, talking about photography. So I have to ask a basic question, what is your relationship to photography?
Onur Tayranoğlu
01:33-02:09
My relationship to photography or lens -based arts, I would say, is mostly in relation to performance. Often it works as a method of documenting the performance and the performance processes. Because also as a performance artist, I don't only do live performances in front of audience, but I lead these performance processes. Which is also what I'm showing now here in this museum.
Erja Salo
02:10-02:32
Yes, you're referring to your exhibition here in the basement floor of Cable Factory this Spring 25.
And Orlan, you've been the curator of the gallery exhibition together with the theme curator. Yes, please tell something about that cooperation.
Orlan Ohtonen
02:33-02:57
Onur’s show came to the museum through an open call, which we now organized for the second time. For the gallery space. And the exhibitions are selected by our exhibition curators at the museum and an invited curator, who this year was Arpot Lakharzeide and Onur show is the first one of this theme, which was Textures of security.
Erja Salo
03:01-03:08
And your show is called Pink Bill. What's pink about it?
Onur Tayranoğlu
03:10-03:47
Pink bill is a word, a term in public slang that would define the official certificate or exemption one person gets. While they're proving their queerness to the Turkish armed forces during the roll call process.
Yeah, so it's kind of, yeah, it's an exemption document that proves your queerness.
Erja Salo
03:48-05:48
Yeah, so it's a slang word.
I find it really important that this video performance piece that you're showing there right now. It's about 36 minutes long, if I remember, right? That, like you said, it's not a document, but a video performance piece, and it's called the rehearsal.
And.
The listeners are not able to see it while we are talking. Let's go a little bit through what's there, what the viewer sees. There is you, it's definitely you yourself.
It's somehow your personal narrative, maybe, and then there is your mother.
And it's some kind of balcony where you are sitting on the pillows, I think, and you hear voices from the street. It's very sunny, there's one point where you say, it's so hot here, and then you go and take a glass of water.
You are drinking water, you're smoking, you both are smoking cigarettes. I think the cigarette smoking part is very important. I paid attention to it a lot.
It's kind of, it's something. Well, you share a lot of things there with your mother, but you share the love of cigarettes or smoking. And I especially love the part when you're almost ripping the part of your cigarette and your mother gives the cup for you to take care of it.
And there is warm on your faces, the sunlight, etc. And then you talk, there's a lot of dialog and you are rehearsing, What are you rehearsing?
Onur Tayranoğlu
05:51-07:45
The video was shot just a couple of days before this specific examination that takes place during this process, which is social investigation by the social service officer.
This examination is requested by the psychiatrist, who gives the final decision, the diagnosis.
So the idea is that I would take two people that are close to me for this examination. And the social service officer would investigate us separately and then write a report on my social life or behavior.
So this video was shot just like two days before this examination. And before the examination, I wanted to rehearse with my mom regarding what we would say, what the doctor would ask. Of course, calling it a rehearsal is also this conscious choice to highlight the performative element in this process and in these examinations. Because in the end, I was expected to perform. One could say a stereotype of how they would understand weirdness, and in official documents, it's actually part of an umbrella term, like psychosexual disorders.
So how to be psychosexually disordered was kind of my research. Yeah, so we are rehearsing for that examination together with mom.
Erja Salo
07:46-07:49
How many times you actually rehearsed?
Onur Tayranoğlu
07:49-07:51
This is the first and only time.
Erja Salo
07:51-07:55
Okay, so it's somehow it's a document of rehearsal.
Onur Tayranoğlu
07:56-08:44
And also if I should give more details in order to make this like only one time. We placed multiple sound recorders around the home and also two cameras around the home. Because we didn't even know where we would sit down to film. And the idea was that I tried to make it so that we would already start feeling comfortable around the recorder and the cameras. In the space. And then wherever we sit, that would be our spot. So I tried not to control too much the conversation or the space.
Erja Salo
08:45-08:50
Are you referring that there in the actual social investigation? They use cameras?
Onur Tayranoğlu
08:51-08:54
No, it was me who set this up.
Erja Salo
08:54-09:07
Yeah, I understood that you also wanted to feel comfortable with the cameras. Because there in the actual investigation, they record it as well. But they don't do it, no.
Onur Tayranoğlu
09:07-09:15
The idea was that this video would be shot only once and we wouldn't repeat or edit anything else.
Erja Salo
09:16-09:54
Yeah, I remember there was this one sentence where you're saying to your mother, we are acting like it is a problem. So I find it like a key sentence that that's the narrative, these are the roles we are playing with the dialog. So it's not definitely it's somehow a document, but there are roles and there are scripts. What is it, Orlan, that you and the curatorial team find so important in this video, Permons, or the whole exhibition?
Orlan Ohtonen
09:57-11:50
There were quite many things that we discussed about Onoru's application because you were already quite far. You had exhibited this work before, so there was a lot of info for us to go through.
I think mostly we were talking about how well it was relating to this idea of creating safety and security.
I guess in my mind at least, I was thinking, like, how the armed forces are created for safety, or that is the purpose. But then, for example, personally, I don't think they deliver that. And then, at the same time, your rehearsal was also for your safety and the safety of your loved ones. And there was something very interesting about this dialog between these two concepts of safety.
Also, I think what we talked about was like, why would we show this at the Museum of Photography? Exactly as you mentioned, Erja also. And one thing that we were talking about was that. How you work with performance in this way, where you, I think, question also reality, what is real? what is performance? Which is a very familiar narrative from queer theory and from queer life, I think also.
And then photography has that same space in a way that what is real, what is photography, what is document? And somehow, yeah, we ended up talking about that also with your work, and I think it's a real. That's a good reason to show it in this museum, that we look at these different relationships to reality, especially today.
Erja Salo
11:53-12:14
Okay, museum has collections, we have almost three million pieces there, so I brought you one not as a real original photographic print, but just a copy. So please take a look.
What do you see there, Onur?
Onur Tayranoğlu
12:17-13:54
I see a red brick house, a yard.
The image is divided into three channels in.
The middle, in front of the door, we see a person sitting on the steps.
Hands together, wearing what one could call a military uniform or camouflage.
On the left, we see another person on the channel. on the left we see another person with red hair in front of a bush and in front of fences.
Again, wearing a camouflage, but I'm assuming they are different people, different than the other two channels. And then on the right, we see another person again with camouflage floating, sitting on top of the fences. And all together, they look like possibly they're in front of the same house.
And then, Yeah, I can give more details, but I don't know if I should.
Erja Salo
13:56-14:03
I loved your careful reading, and how about you, Orlan? What do you see happening there?
Orlan Ohtonen
14:03-14:37
I guess, to add to what Onur said, I think it looks like the people are quite young.
And these camouflage outfits are a bit different from each other, so they're not all wearing exactly the same uniform. I'm not sure what this one person is holding in their hand, one is holding a water bottle, but I'm not sure actually what is this object in the red -haired person's hand?
Erja Salo
14:40-15:39
Thank you. This is a work by Finnish photographer Markus Jokela, and it was taken in 1993 in Pakila, in a suburban area of Helsinki. Which is, well, quite full of those red brick houses and older ones built after the war. And it's titled Camouflage, like you both mentioned.
And.
I just checked that it was year 1995, so two years after this image was taken, when the voluntary military service was open for women in Finland. Does that bring now this context, any new thoughts, interpretations to your mind?
Orlan Ohtonen
15:40-15:56
I think I wasn't really thinking about gender, but if it's something that has been part of the artist's process, then that would bring it more into this context of gender, I think.
Erja Salo
15:58-16:55
Yeah, I don't know either how long has been the discussion around the topic. The voluntary Military service. Is it strong going on already? 1993? Or Jokela's kind of technique or strategy when he did this piece. And I think generally still is that he does this kind of clinical photography. He walked around in the suburban area and he's referring to aerial photography being as clinical as aerial photography. And just seeing things, and in this case, meeting people asking permission, Can I take a photo?
And then he takes it and it's there. He kind of almost tries to hidden meanings, but I don't know if that's ever possible to have an image without any real meaning or just blank.
Orlan Ohtonen
16:57-17:04
So it's not a staged image, but these are people that he has met on the street.
Erja Salo
17:04-18:34
No, if we listen to the artist's intentions, no, it's not staged. But I think that the Triptych or the three channels, like you mentioned channels, they mean a lot here. How you read it kind of points the central piece and what's in your sight.
I was thinking about the kind of historical context of performance. It's not at all. I'm not trying to say I know it. No, I don't. I'm more familiar with the photography, but when I hear about performance, especially in Finnish, I also think of rituals and ceremonies.
And when I think rituals and ceremonies, then I think that the performance might have a really long history. And it has always been connected to society and hierarchies. And that way, it might have the tool or the instrument to somehow navigate there, and it can be used as a tool of power. Like especially royals, monarchies, these kind of things have happened.
Do you agree at all, Onuro? Or what's your kind of? How do you enter into the performance space or pool?
Onur Tayranoğlu
18:35-20:56
I agree that performance, in probably many contexts, or its historical canon in performance studies, is always mentioned as related to rituals. Because I think performance itself as a concept, I think is a point where you make, together with others, a new reality.
And in that sense, I think it's also related to photography, in the sense that the photographed image is also recreating. How we understand the memory, how we understand the reality, and performance in that sense. For me, is a space where I don't necessarily accept it as a tool for making a reality, but more of like, playing with it. As Orlan said previously, I think I'm interested in playing with the concept of reality and maybe asking questions regarding what is reality and what is not. But this doesn't mean that performance equals to fiction, it's more of how performance can make a reality.
Because I think it's more of a question that I have. So it's how I step into performance. And in my practice, I often try to do it so that I position my performances in areas where it can be just art or reality. So it's underlined between this that the performance takes place outside of an artistic context and somehow transformed into an object or an event that can take place in the artistic context. So by doing that, I feel like I'm highlighting this like that, actually, how performance, maybe, as you said in the understanding of ritual, emphasizes the power structures in making of a reality.
Erja Salo
20:57-21:13
And you mentioned that it's done with the others, sometimes. Communities. What are your communities?
How do you place?
Whose rituals are you showing?
Onur Tayranoğlu
21:13-22:52
When I said it happens with the community, I meant more of that. There needs to be a witness to your act or performance, and in this case, actually the institutions. This, like Turkish armed forces, the health care system and the members of these communities were my audience at first place. But if you would ask, what is my community? in the sake of where I find support?
I would say the queer community, for sure. Both in Turkey, in Istanbul and here. And to be honest, it's also kind of new for me in Istanbul because I left when I was 19,.
Like, seven or eight years ago, almost so. This project also kind of helped me to reconnect with them because there were so many people who have experienced this process. Before me, I was hearing a lot of stories, tips, and I always got this generous offers of. Like, we can come with you to the hospital so that you don't need to be alone. But also even at the hospital, I wasn't alone. Like there were all these other queers that, like, recognize each other and then, like, come and say, like, I'm going to give you a tip.
This is how I've done it, like, don't worry, like it's going to be okay. Like, somehow there was this support mechanism.
Erja Salo
22:52-23:13
Yes, it felt really strong in the video performance. And especially in this little leaflet that the viewer can read where the dialog is written. And also something that it's not in the video itself, like the whole process timeline.
Onur Tayranoğlu
23:14-23:24
But the video is just like a very small clip, like one short excerpt of this whole process.
Erja Salo
23:25-23:53
And I remember that one of the tips from your friends, from the community, from your friends, was that you need to act like a pervert. And at that point, on the balcony, you were smiling and laughing. So I find there's a lot of humor also where you approach, at least in this piece.
Onur Tayranoğlu
23:54-24:57
Exactly, I also find it quite humorous, because often again, I think what performance does, or what this video does, is that. Sometimes we forget that some things are fiction or some things are scripted. And this doesn't mean that it's scripted by a creator, but it's scripted by a system. And that can be, I think, quite humorous that how queer is scripted in Turkish armed forces.
And how do we play with it? That it, somehow queer, doesn't become necessarily a disorder for the person who is queer, but it becomes a disorder for the system. So that it has a potential to disorder. Some stuff which is, I think thinking relating to military and military order, I think that is, in that context, what pervert means.
Erja Salo
24:59-25:25
In this podcast, we also look and talk about other images and the collection images.
And all these images can be seen on the website of this podcast. And I recommend strongly that. But now, Orlan, what have you brought us from the collection, isn't it? yes?
Orlan Ohtonen
25:27-25:33
We chose this image with collection curator Max Fritze.
Shall I just show it to you?
Erja Salo
25:33-25:48
Yeah, because Onur has not seen it. It's a surprise, always a surprise.
Just a sheet from the printer.
What do you see, onur?
Onur Tayranoğlu
25:50-26:51
I see a body that is in tight black suit with high heel black boots.
You would imagine that body continues with the head on the head. There is a big blueberry.
And then behind the body, you see, I would say, maybe black plastic bags that are shaping the body as if it's a flower.
And then on the top of the head, which is in this case a blueberry, there are some horns one could say, or a head. But in total, it becomes like a black flower. It resembles that.
Orlan Ohtonen
26:52-26:53
Thank you.
Erja Salo
26:53-26:55
So, Orlan, why that image?
Orlan Ohtonen
26:56-28:05
This is Heidi Kilpeläinen's performance outfit, where they have placed a blueberry on top of the face, and it's called Blueberry Portrait. And it refers to this Finnish saying, where we say muumaa mustikka, where I could translate it to.
I guess other countries are blueberries, whereas our own is a strawberry.
So I chose it with Max because of this connotation to something that is othered or something that is unfamiliar, and that the familiar thing is more comfortable. But at the same time, when the unfamiliar thing is uncomfortable. It's also interesting, and yet also the connection to your work through this documentation of a performance and a performance outfit.
But I thought the connection.
To othering through language was quite interesting in relation to your work.
Erja Salo
28:07-28:11
So what do you think about this blueberry -strawberry othering?
Onur Tayranoğlu
28:11-28:24
Yeah.
I'm not sure if I totally understood, but is it so that there is this thing that other countries are blueberry and we are strawberry? What does Strawberry signal there?
Erja Salo
28:25-28:29
That it's better berry than blueberry, which is better.
Orlan Ohtonen
28:30-28:50
When I was translating or trying to translate this Muumaa Mustikka reference in my mind to English. And then I started to think, it's a weird one, though. Because, for example, for me, blueberries are better than strawberries, but I do always associate it with the idea of something else being worse.
Onur Tayranoğlu
28:52-29:21
Yeah, especially, I think in context of nations, but there is always, I think one could say this populist thing of that. Somehow, everyone else is the enemy of you, and then you are the best one and you need to secure always to be the best one. In that sense, yeah, I could really see how it also connects with my work.
Erja Salo
29:23-29:29
And Onuru, what are you? Your images are on laptop, aren't they? You brought at least two?
Onur Tayranoğlu
29:30-30:18
After seeing these two, I guess I know which one I went to.
No, I see, I think some also like esthetic similarity with the last image that Orland brought.
This suit that makes a body.
Like the covering the face somehow choosing to be.
Yeah, maybe, like choosing the opacity rather than showing.
So should I then show the photo?
Erja Salo
30:18-30:21
Yeah, please show it to us and then describe a bit.
Onur Tayranoğlu
30:22-31:42
Okay, this is the photo in the exhibition, it's a photo print as part of the installation Washing the shade.
If I would describe the photo a bit, you see a body facing backwards to the camera, wearing a green suit that is tight.
I would say it almost looks like a second skin and is standing in front of a green background.
The hands on the hips, standing like a hero, wearing a scarf on the back, which we see. A text written and the text says, Washing the shade is in Turkish language, which means they are now a thing.
One could translate.
So it's my description of the photo before, maybe digging deeper.
Erja Salo
31:43-31:45
And this one can be seen in the exhibition.
Orlan Ohtonen
31:46-31:46
Yes.
Erja Salo
31:46-31:48
How big is the image?
Onur Tayranoğlu
31:48-32:31
The image is one meter to one meter 80 centimeters.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, the original scarf as an object that I like, embroidered myself, and then there is the chair where the scarf is standing on. And then there is an iPad that shows another video documentation of a performance called Farewell.
Erja Salo
32:35-32:40
And farewell is about how does it connect with the rehearsal?
Onur Tayranoğlu
32:41-34:37
As I told, this whole project was a performative process and there are different points in this performative process. So the Farewell is, I would say one could say, the final part where I got the pink belt. And the exhibition was opening in Istanbul, where we framed the opening as a party called Farewell, and Farewell is referring to a tradition called soldier Farewell, where in Turkey, when young men leave for mandatory military service. There would be a celebration with neighbors, relatives, family and friends, where they would celebrate the young men stepping into manhood and sacrificing their body into the nation, the country.
So here in My Farewell is a queer -appropriated version of this tradition. Where we celebrate my failure into becoming that patriotic body and becoming that man that the system defines us.
And as part of that party, there was also a performance we've done with my mom. In the tradition, normally, there would be the mom and the son sitting in front of each other and would perform a couple of rituals. Which often symbolizes sacrificing the body to the nation.
Erja Salo
34:41-34:51
Are you creating a new ritual here, which is fomenting something more traditional in Turkey?
Onur Tayranoğlu
34:52-35:26
Yes, and the scarf is also a symbol reference that I think in Turkish context, many people get immediately that there is a scarf that is often red or green, which looks like this in a triangle shape. And on it, it would write Oşim de asker, which means he is now a soldier, so the text clearly takes that, but changes the word soldier with şey.
Erja Salo
35:27-36:17
There's a lot of cultural things here in order to kind of read it, but once you hear it.
I can really relate what must be the effect because it comments something that is in the society. And you kind of use the same form and the mechanism, but the community and the context, the story is different without that cultural knowledge that you're bringing now out.
I intuitively read it that the person is holding some kind of superpower, and what are the person's superpowers here? I don't know. Can you relate to that at all?
Onur Tayranoğlu
36:17-36:57
Yeah, definitely. As I told, I think in the core is, how can we learn to celebrate these failures?
And how these failures can help us see how the system fails itself. I think so that's why it's somehow an anti -hero, I would say this character, a hero that we wouldn't maybe normatively, really expect to be. Because heroes of nations are often the ones that would die for the country.
Erja Salo
36:59-37:27
Well, I thank you both for this hour and this podcast, and all the other 32 episodes you can listen on Spotify or almost any other podcast platforms. And please go to our museum's website in order to see these images that we talked about. Thank you, Onur and Orlan
Kuulemisiin!
